What Legislation will Work?

[DrkSide]

So, I realize I spend quite a bit of time explaining how a new AWB or magazine ban will not work to curb gun violence. But the other night I was talking with a friend and he wanted to know what I thought would work.

Enforce current laws is the key. Not only enforce them but give the maximum sentences for committing a crime with a firearm.

Besides that, the ONLY other item that I think might work would be a law providing for prosecution of negligence if a firearm owner did not have their firearms in a safe or trigger locks installed. My reasoning is that by not protecting your firearm if someone does steal it and is not hindered in using it would be negligence in my eyes. The problem is how will this be enforced? Currently, if one of my firearms were stolen and used in a crime it could be traced back to the store where I purchased it. This would lead them to me being the owner and therefore I would be guilty of negligence for not protecting it to the best of my ability (subjective I know).

It is not perfect and obviously has problems such as a private purchase where no form was used. However, I think of it like this. If I had a firearm stolen from me and found out that it was used to harm someone else I am already guilty in my mind. It was my responsibility.

With that being said. Do you think this could make a difference? What, if anything, would work?

 

[kwo51]

If you have a gun stolen report it to police. Ya you should have had it locked up when you were not home. They call it stealing for a reason,they did not leave a receipt.

 

[DrkSide]

If you have a gun stolen report it to police. Ya you should have had it locked up when you were not home. They call it stealing for a reason,they did not leave a receipt.

Your comment doesn't really make sense to me......

1. Of course report a firearm stolen.
2. Many, many people don't have a way to lock their guns up, what I am saying is they should or be responsible for what happens with them.

 

[kwo51]

You can always secure a gun if you want. You are only responsible for your actions if you are negligent in securing them.

 

[Mockstar]

My friend and I had discussion over something along these lines the other day.

I was bitching about everything going on, and his wife start to give me crap for owning the guns that I do. Asking me why I need thoes guns, and what would I do if it were my children in that situation.

I began to confront her, and ask who is the more responsible gun owner........Me with all my guns locked in safes, with ammo in its own safe, or her and her husband with guns just standing in the closet, or sitting in a drawer? They don't own nearly the amount of guns that I do, so I'm not sure if that's their reasoning for not owning a safe, but it's not very responsible. Especially with a 2 year old just starting to roam around their house, and one on the way.

I have an 11yo boy, and a 4yo boy. I don't have my guns locked up just because I'm afraid of them being stolen, I have them locked up because I'm a responsible parent and gun owner.

She got all butt hurt, and stormed out of the garage. Then there was an awkward silence between me and my friend......Long story short. If your guns are not locked up, and somehow end up being used in a crime, you should be responsible..

 

[DrkSide]

......Long story short. If your guns are not locked up, and somehow end up being used in a crime, you should be responsible.

Exactly, this is my view on it. Up until recent events I had just done like your friends and left mine in the drawer and behind the bedroom door (no kids) but I got to thinking about everything and realized how I would feel if they were stolen and used against someone. This is the reason the next weekend I bought a safe.

This will not work without enforcing it along with strict enforcement of current laws.

 

[oppo]

Unless you spend a chunk of money for "real" safe, you aren't stopping anyone but little kids. Smaller safes can be carried out easily and trigger locks can easily be removed later. A good safe is a no brainer for someone with thousands invested in firwarms but what about someone who can barely afford 1 for home protection? Also, who do you charge? The youngest kid in my home is 17. If someone besides me is home, I want them to have the means to protect themselves and taking the time to unlock a safe isn't always an option.

 

[Mockstar]

Unless you spend a chunk of money for "real" safe, you aren't stopping anyone but little kids. Smaller safes can be carried out easily and trigger locks can easily be removed later. A good safe is a no brainer for someone with thousands invested in firwarms but what about someone who can barely afford 1 for home protection? Also, who do you charge? The youngest kid in my home is 17. If someone besides me is home, I want them to have the means to protect themselves and taking the time to unlock a safe isn't always an option.

That why I sated my safes are in the house mainly because of my kids. I understand that they can be carried out, preyed open, cut open, blown up with C4, dragged thru a wall with a chain connected to tow truck, or whatever bright idea a thief might use.

If any of those situation were to occur, I could without a doubt prove that my obligation to have those firearms properly secured and stored was completed. I don't see any reason to be held responsible after that point.

As for quick access storage boxes for emergecy situations, they are available, and I do have one. That still doesn't mean that my 11 year old has access to it. Maybe when he's 17........

 

[DrkSide]

Unless you spend a chunk of money for "real" safe, you aren't stopping anyone but little kids. Smaller safes can be carried out easily and trigger locks can easily be removed later. A good safe is a no brainer for someone with thousands invested in firwarms but what about someone who can barely afford 1 for home protection? Also, who do you charge? The youngest kid in my home is 17. If someone besides me is home, I want them to have the means to protect themselves and taking the time to unlock a safe isn't always an option.

My safe is probably not considered a real safe, so since it is not I should do nothing? It may not be the best but it makes me feel better about knowing it is a little harder for people to steal my guns.

People that can only afford one gun for protection, probably a pistol, can get a nice lock box that can be bolted somewhere (not just set on the nightstand) and it be better than just leaving it out. Single pistol safes are alot easier to hide as well.

I would not, and do not, lock up my guns when I am home. Every night when I get home they go to their respective positions. Every morning when I leave for work they go back in the safe.

Like I said earlier, it is not perfect. But it is something that I am willing to do to possibly keep my guns out of the hands of others.

 

[kwo51]

If somebody steals my car and goes out and kills some one with it,I am not responsible. It was taken without my permission and used. Given op reasoning you are guilty for owning a gun. Stealing is a crime and if reported the criminal is guilty of the crime. That is why in Florida if a private citizen is injured in the commission of a crime the perc is charge with it,even if he was shot by another person trying to stop him. Good judgement says lock your guns and doors,it is not the law.

 

[oppo]

Your first idea was right. It seems like these thugs always have a lengthy list of priors. How about we quit letting them right back out on the streets?

While I agree that keeping some firearms locked up to whatever extent you can is a very good idea, legislating how and when they must be locked up is problematic at best and a can of worms best left unopened.

 

[SilvrSRT10]

If somebody steals my car and goes out and kills some one with it,I am not responsible. It was taken without my permission and used. Given op reasoning you are guilty for owning a gun. Stealing is a crime and if reported the criminal is guilty of the crime. That is why in Florida if a private citizen is injured in the commission of a crime the perc is charge with it,even if he was shot by another person trying to stop him. Good judgement says lock your guns and doors,it is not the law.

I have to agree with this. Good analogy. If your house is broken into and a gun is stolen, the criminal still went where they weren't suppose to be to get it. It's not like the weapon was sitting out in the open begging to be taken.

 

[DrkSide]

If my truck is stolen I would not worry about it being used to hurt someone. Granted it very well may be but that is not my first thought. If someone robs my house and finds a gun he is now an armed criminal (where he may not have been before). Since criminals break laws it would not be out of a normal realm of thought to think that the gun may be used to harm another person and that does not sit well with me.

 

[Jo6pak]

My thoughts...

1. The BATFE needs an administrator that truly believes in the 2nd amendment. The BATFE needs to focus on illegal gun traffiking, keeping databases of gun used in crimes, and ENFORCING CURRENT GUN LAWS.

2. Reinstating capitol punishment, for certain crimes. Sure studies have shone that it may not be a deterent, but it sure stops a second offense.

3. Those who are not allowed to purchase firearms, cannot legallly attempt to procure them. So, if the NICS check comes up as a denial, the police should be immediately dispatched to hold the person and investigate. If it is a mistake, then everyone goes about there business. If the person is prohibitted from owning a fiream, they should be prosecuted EVERY TIME.

4.. States should be mandated to contribute information to the NICS system.

 

[Mockstar]

So I got to looking around about this "Safe Storage" issue. Mainly its for the safety of children as it is here in Wi. I noticed that ohio has a law that states, "It is unlawful to knowingly fail to report to law enforcement authorities forthwith the loss or theft of any firearm."

How does that work? Are residents required to check their guns every hour? What about the felon that has his gun stolen that he is not legally able to own? Does he have to infringe on his 5th amendment right?

 

[DrkSide]

My thoughts...

1. The BATFE needs an administrator that truly believes in the 2nd amendment. The BATFE needs to focus on illegal gun traffiking, keeping databases of gun used in crimes, and ENFORCING CURRENT GUN LAWS.

2. Reinstating capitol punishment, for certain crimes. Sure studies have shone that it may not be a deterent, but it sure stops a second offense.

3. Those who are not allowed to purchase firearms, cannot legallly attempt to procure them. So, if the NICS check comes up as a denial, the police should be immediately dispatched to hold the person and investigate. If it is a mistake, then everyone goes about there business. If the person is prohibitted from owning a fiream, they should be prosecuted EVERY TIME.

4.. States should be mandated to contribute information to the NICS system.

Works for me.

So I got to looking around about this "Safe Storage" issue. Mainly its for the safety of children as it is here in Wi. I noticed that ohio has a law that states, "It is unlawful to knowingly fail to report to law enforcement authorities forthwith the loss or theft of any firearm."

How does that work? Are residents required to check their guns every hour? What about the felon that has his gun stolen that he is not legally able to own? Does he have to infringe on his 5th amendment right?

I believe that there is a time allowance on the reporting. Could not find it but I think about 2 weeks. As for the felon that had his gun stolen, he didn't purchase it legally so what does he care. They couldn't trace it back to him to enforce it. Plus, criminals don't care about laws.

 

[Silver-Bolt]

My thoughts...

1. The BATFE needs an administrator that truly believes in the 2nd amendment. The BATFE needs to focus on illegal gun traffiking, keeping databases of gun used in crimes, and ENFORCING CURRENT GUN LAWS.

2. Reinstating capitol punishment, for certain crimes. Sure studies have shone that it may not be a deterent, but it sure stops a second offense.

3. Those who are not allowed to purchase firearms, cannot legallly attempt to procure them. So, if the NICS check comes up as a denial, the police should be immediately dispatched to hold the person and investigate. If it is a mistake, then everyone goes about there business. If the person is prohibitted from owning a fiream, they should be prosecuted EVERY TIME.

4.. States should be mandated to contribute information to the NICS system.

I would sign off on this.

Enforcement of current laws. Mandatory mins for crimes involving firearms including the theft of firearms. If someone breaks into a home and steals a gun mandatory min applies.

National mandatory background checks. I like the idea if someone is not eligible and they try they get paid a visit.

Education and training requirements. If you have a concealed permit you have to qualify with your weapon to lawenforcement standards as a minimum. Currently in Oregon you can get a permit without ever firing a shot.

I would even go so far as all sales transactions need to be filed. If you sell a car DMV does a title transfer. I know it let's big brother know what you have but it also could save your ass if you sell one and it is used in a crime.

We all know that any ban will have zero impact on gun related crime. The key is to crack down on the bad guys and help those with mental issues.

 

[DrkSide]

I would sign off on this.

Enforcement of current laws. Mandatory mins for crimes involving firearms including the theft of firearms. If someone breaks into a home and steals a gun mandatory min applies.

National mandatory background checks. I like the idea if someone is not eligible and they try they get paid a visit.

Education and training requirements. If you have a concealed permit you have to qualify with your weapon to lawenforcement standards as a minimum. Currently in Oregon you can get a permit without ever firing a shot.

I would even go so far as all sales transactions need to be filed. If you sell a car DMV does a title transfer. I know it let's big brother know what you have but it also could save your ass if you sell one and it is used in a crime.

We all know that any ban will have zero impact on gun related crime. The key is to crack down on the bad guys and help those with mental issues.

Are you saying do away with the private sale without a background check?

 

[Silver-Bolt]

Are you saying do away with the private sale without a background check?

Yes. If that keeps the bans at bay then I would agree to that. What you own now is your business and no one elses. If you decide to sell than the buyer is subjected to a check. If you buy privately you are subjected.

It would cover your ass from unknowingly selling to a felon or unstable person. That firearm is now in play and it ownership is known until it is sold again.

 

[DrkSide]

Yes. If that keeps the bans at bay then I would agree to that. What you own now is your business and no one elses. If you decide to sell than the buyer is subjected to a check. If you buy privately you are subjected.

It would cover your ass from unknowingly selling to a felon or unstable person. That firearm is now in play and it ownership is known until it is sold again.

While I am not saying that I disagree with you. What you have just said is a start to a firearms registry. What that being said. All of my firearms have been bought from an FFL so the 4473 forms already point to me.

Lets be honest. As far as I know the ATF can request form 4473's whenever they want. So in essence it will not be hard for them to get a jump on a registry.